0001
01 NO. 93-05258-G
01
02 JOHN DOE I, et al. ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
02 )
03 )
03 VERSUS ) OF DALLAS COUNTY
04 )
04 REVEREND RUDOLPH KOS, et al. ) 134TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
05
05
06 REPORTER'S RECORDS
06 VOLUME____OF_____
07
07 APPEARANCES:
08
08 MR. WINDLE TURLEY
09 MR. BENJAMIN DU BOSE
09 Attorneys at Law
10 1000 University Tower
10 6440 N. Central Expressway
11 Dallas, Texas 75205
11
12 MS. SYLVIA M. DEMAREST
12 Attorney at Law
13 DEMAREST, SMITH, PRESLAR, JONES & GIUNTA
13 Cedar Maple Plaza
14 2305 Cedar Springs Road, Suite 350
14 Dallas, Texas 75201
15
15 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS
16 MR. RANDAL MATHIS
16 MR. DENNIS ROOSSIEN
17 Attorneys at Law
17 MUNSCH, HARDT, KOPF, HARR & DINAN, P. C.
18 4000 Fountain Place
18 1455 Ross Avenue
19 Dallas, Texas 75202-2711
19 FOR THE DIOCESE OF
20 DALLAS
20
21 On the 30th day of May, 1997, the
22 above-entitled and numbered cause came on for a hearing
23 before the Honorable Anne Ashby, Judge presiding of the
24 134th Judicial District Court of Dallas County, Texas, and
25 a jury, at which time the following proceedings were had:
0002
01
01 W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S:
02
02 PAGE
03
03 (John Doe #V)III
04 (Continued)
04
05 Cross Examination
05 By Mr. Mathis...........3445
06 Redirect Examination
06 By Mr. Turley...........3502
07 Recross Examination
07 By Mr. Mathis...........3509
08 Redirect Examination
08 By Mr. Turley...........3511
09
09 MOST REVEREND MONSIGNOR ROBERT REHKEMPER
10
10 Direct Examination
11 By Ms. Demarest.........3515
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0003
01
01 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S:
02
02 Marked Offered Admitted
03
03
04 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 105
04 Current photo of (John
05 Doe #VIII)....................3402 3402
05
06 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 106
06 Photo of (John Doe #VIII) at
07 six years old.............3402 3402
07
08 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 107
08 Photo of (John Doe #VIII)
09 with respirator...........3402 3402
09
10 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 108
10 Photo of (John Doe #VIII)
11 at age 8 or 9.............3402 3402
11
12 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 109
12 Medical Consent and
13 Authorization for
13 (John Doe #VIII)................3464 3464
14
14 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 110
15 1988 Diocese Personnel
15 Board Manual..............3512 3512
16
16 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 111
17 1988 policy of Diocese....3592 3593
17
18 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 112
18 January 31, 1980 Vow of
19 Celibacy of Rudy Kos......3592 3594
19
20 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 113
20 March 3, 1980 Vow of
21 Celibacy of Rudy Kos......3592 3594
21
22 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 114
22 March 25, 1991 Vow of
23 Celibacy of Rudy Kos.....3592 3594
23
24
24
25
25
0004
01
01 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S:
02
02 Marked Offered Admitted
03
03 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 115
04 April 2, 1981 Vow of
04 Celibacy of Rudy Kos.......3592 3594
05
05 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 116
06 April 2, 1981 list of
06 pastors....................3592 3593
07
07 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 117
08 Note written by Rehkemper..3592 3593
08
09 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 118
09 Leave of Absence for Father
10 Peebles from Personnel
10 Board......................3592 3593
11
11 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 119........withdrawn 3602
12
12 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 120 through
13 123
13 Items from seminary file of
14 evaluation of Robert Peebles
14 at Holy Trinity Seminary...3602 3594
15
15 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 124
16 Father Peeble's assignment
16 to St. John's in Ennis..... 3596
17
17 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 125
18 Father Peebles assignment
18 to St. Marks' in Plano..... 3596
19
19 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 126
20 List of priests............ 3596
20
21 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 127
21 through 130
22 assignments of
22 Father Peebles..... 3597
23
23 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 131
24 Letter appointing Father
24 Peebles as Director of
25 Scouting for Diocese...... 3597
25
0005
01
01
02
02
03 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S:
03
04 Marked Offered Admitted
04
05 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 132
05 Father Peebles' request
06 to enter Military......... 3597
06
07 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 133....... 3597
07
08 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 134
08 Letter regarding Retreats
09 of Diocese................ 3597
09
10 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 135
10 Statement of Robert
11 Peebles...................withdrawn 3598
11
12 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 136
12 Conversation between
13 Father Peebles and
13 Retreat Master............ 3599
14
14 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 137
15 2-3-82 Lettter from
15 Bishp to Military
16 Vicariate................. 3599
16
17 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 138
17 5-21-84 Letter to
18 Peebles regarding
18 assignment to
19 St. Augustine's. .........3635 3636
19
20 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 140
20 8-27-86 Peebles
21 Resignation letter........3636 3636
21
22 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 141
22 February 15, 1989
23 Father Williams Hughes's
23 appointment to Personnel
24 Board..................... 3646
24
25
25
0006
01
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3402
01
02 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S:
03
04 May 30, 1997
05
06 MR. TURLEY: Your Honor, we had passed the witness,
07 but I have a couple of tidy-up questions.
08 THE COURT: You bet. Go ahead.
09 MR. TURLEY: We do want to offer photographs
10 identified yesterday, 101, the present photograph of
11 (John Doe #VII). We also offer Exhibit 106 which is the
12 photograph of his six year old son, 107, which is a
13 photograph of (John Doe #VIII) with a respirator machine or a
14 respiratory machines, and 108, which is a photograph at
15 approximately age eight or nine.
16 MR. MATHIS: No objection.
17 THE COURT: Tell me those numbers again, Mr.
18 Turley.
19 MR. TURLEY: 105, 106, 107 and 108.
20 THE COURT: Those are admitted.
21 MR. TURLEY: Thank you.
22 (John Doe #VIII), I just have a couple of other questions, if I
23 could, please.
24 A. Certainly.
25 Q. You told us yesterday that it was sometime
3403
01 while you were seeing your counselor, Laural Chapet, that
02 you finally figured out that Kos had done something bad to
03 you and that you had been injured by him.
04 A. That's correct.
05 Q. Tell us, approximately, what year that was,
06 or tell us what year it was.
07 A. Sometime in '93 or '94, probably late '93.
08 Q. All right. And that is when you first
09 realized that something wrong had been done to you and you
10 had been injured about it.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Yesterday I -- we all appreciate your effort
13 to talk to us. It is difficult for you to express your
14 feelings.
15 A. Extremely.
16 Q. Were you able yesterday to tell us all of
17 the things that you feel that Rudy Kos did to you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you able to tell us all of the dark
20 things that are in your life that you have done and that
21 has occurred to you since you got away Father Rudy Kos?
22 A. No, I've not.
23 Q. Is it your -- is it your intention to try to
24 work things out with your wife and your kids, or where is
25 that now?
3404
01 A. We've discussed it. She is very willing.
02 And I -- I don't know if it is the best thing for --
03 specifically for her. I don't know if it's the right thing
04 to do.
05 Q. And why do you say that?
06 A. I don't want to subject her to what I'm
07 going through now and more aptly what I'm going to go
08 through in the near future when I begin to revolve this.
09 It's going to be -- it's going to be difficult for her.
10 Q. You said yesterday -- you sport your
11 children, by the way.
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. You said yesterday that you had some sealed
14 over -- or scars that had sealed over.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Can you describe to the jury what is hidden
17 beneath those scars?
18 A. Well, no, I don't know if I can describe
19 really what is underneath the scars. I don't think that I
20 can really even begin to express it. I just -- I just
21 know there is a lot -- there is a lot more down there that
22 was -- underneath all of this, underneath from what I can
23 begin to say now, there is a lot more festering down there.
24 I mean, I don't know how to -- I don't know if I can really
25 describe it.
3405
01 Q. Is it your intention to try to deal with
02 that in the next few years?
03 A. Yes, it is. It is a necessity.
04 Q. (John Doe #VIII), I'm not going to to ask you to describe
05 for us any more about that today or any more than we went
06 into yesterday --
07 A. Thank you.
08 Q. -- because we have some experts witnesses
09 that you've talked to already about this. And we're going
10 to have them come and explain -- explain you to the jury.
11 A. Better than I can, I hope.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. Thank you.
14 THE COURT: Cross?
15 MR. MATHIS: Yes.
16 CROSS EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. MATHIS:
18 Q. For about four years now I have been
19 referring to you as (John Doe #VIII), and I think yesterday you said
20 you prefer (-----)?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Okay. Is that still all right, as far as --
23 A. That's fine.
24 Q. All right.
25 I may have a little trouble getting that in
3406
01 my head, so I apologize in advance if I do that.
02 A. I understand.
03 Q. (John Doe #VIII), I've got a few questions, obviously. I
04 suspect it's less than an hour. So I'll try to get through
05 here.
06 A couple of house cleaning things. Did you
07 say your date of birth was ...........?
08 A. That's correct.
09 Q. And that makes you how old now?
10 A. Thirty-one.
11 Q. And let's see, this lawsuit was filed in
12 May, May 2nd of '94.
13 A. I don't know exactly when -- I don't recall
14 exactly when I filed it.
15 Q. All right. Does the summer or the spring
16 of '94 sound about right?
17 A. About right, I guess.
18 Q. Okay. The file would reflect the exact
19 date.
20 Yesterday -- I might skip ahead a little
21 bit, but I want to make sure I've covered all of the
22 things. You said that the last occurrence of any kind of
23 sexual contact with Rudy Kos would have been in '85?
24 A. Probably early '85 or late '84.
25 Q. Earlier '85 or late '84?
3407
01 A. Yes.
02 Q. And so that would have been when Kos was
03 still at All Saints Church out in north Dallas.
04 A. That's correct.
05 Q. Okay. There was not anything of that
06 nature that occurred, then, after he went to St. Luke's or
07 even when you saw him later once down in Ennis?
08 A. I know nothing happened -- absolutely know
09 nothing happened in Ennis. And I don't recall anything
10 happening at St. Luke's. Our relationship wasn't
11 particularly close at that time.
12 Q. Okay, at that point. Okay.
13 Okay. Now with those out of the way, let me
14 back up a little bit. You said that your -- yesterday
15 there was a picture of you grandparents, that they were
16 from Holland?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Am I correct that your mother was also
19 raised in ......, in ............?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. When did she come here? Was this when she
22 was very young?
23 A. I imagine it was in her twenties. I'm not
24 certain of that.
25 Q. Okay. What is your natural father's name,
3408
01 your biological father's name?
02 A. ...........
03 Q. Where does he live?
04 A. He lives in the Lake Worth area. It's a
05 suburb of Fort Worth, near the lake.
06 Q. But he is here in this Dallas metroplex
07 area?
08 A. That's correct.
09 Q. Okay. What does he do for a living?
10 A. Right now he doesn't do anything at all, I
11 don't think.
12 Q. What -- did he always live in this area when
13 you were growing up?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. So he was always in the Dallas/Fort
16 Worth metroplex from the time you were born, up until the
17 present time?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Is that right?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right. Now your mother, where were the
22 two of you living or you and your brothers and sisters
23 living back at the time you first met Rudy Kos when he was
24 a nurse at Methodist Hospital?
25 A. In Fort Worth.
3409
01 Q. That was in the City of Fort Worth itself?
02 A. Well, River Oaks is a suburb of Fort Worth.
03 Q. And you met Rudy when you came to Dallas for
04 treatment at Methodist Hospital?
05 A. That's correct.
06 Q. How was it that you came to be at Methodist
07 Hospital over here, rather than Fort Worth?
08 A. Uh, it -- Methodist Hospital's
09 Pulmonary/Respiratory Care Unit was one of the best in the
10 country. I was extremely ill as a child. It was
11 life-threatening. I had been treated by a doctor in Fort
12 Worth and he referred me to Dr. William F. Miller who was
13 one of the best doctors in the country.
14 Q. So you were treated by Dr. Miller, then, at
15 Methodist.
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Okay. So you came here for the specific
18 treatment that was available.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. (John Doe #VIII), what was your mother's
21 occupation back at the time you would have first met Rudy
22 at the hospital?
23 A. She was working in the restaurant industry.
24 I don't know exactly what she did.
25 Q. Okay. And you said you had one or two
3410
01 sisters?
02 A. I have one sister and one brother.
03 Q. One sister --
04 A. One sister, one brother.
05 Q. Okay. And what is -- who is the oldest?
06 How do they -- kind of tell us their names and ages.
07 A. ......... is my sister, or .......... now.
And she is, I believe, thirty-six or
09 thirty-seven.
10 Q. Okay. So she is a little older than you
11 are.
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. By five years, roughly?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And your brother, what is his age?
16 A. .......... is about four years older than
17 me, so that would put him at thirty-five.
18 Q. So you were the youngest of the three.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Any other brothers and sisters?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When you were -- how old were you when your
23 mother and father were divorced?
24 A. I think about three or four. I'm not
25 certain.
3411
01 Q. And did your mother and all three of her
02 children continue to live there in Fort Worth after they
03 split up?
04 A. That's correct.
05 Q. Has your mother ever lived in Dallas?
06 A. No, she didn't.
07 Q. Has she lived in Fort Worth every since you
08 were a child, up to the present time?
09 A. That's correct.
10 Q. I understand at some point your mom
11 remarried. When was that? How old would you have been?
12 A. I would have been about six, I think, five
13 or six -- well, that's -- no, it would have been later.
14 Q. How old were you when your parents divorced?
15 A. I think I was about four when they divorced.
16 Q. All right. And then how old were you when
17 your mother remarried?
18 A. I don't remember exactly. I'm thinking it
19 was -- I have a hard time associating a date with what was
20 going on at that time. I imagine I was about nine. I'm
21 really not certain of that at all. I can look at it and
22 tell you. I think you have it in my deposition.
23 Q. But if -- if it's in grade school, kind of
24 in the middle of grade school, it would be about right?
25 A. I believe so.
3412
01 Q. What is your stepfather's name?
02 A. ..........
03 Q. Can you spell that?
04 A. Yes, I can, certainly. .-.-.-.-.-.
05 (spelling).
06 Q. And where does he live now?
07 A. He lives in Fort Worth with my mother --
08 well, actually -- not --
09 Q. Are they still married?
10 A. No. Actually, just recently they separated.
11 And so I don't know what is going on with that at the
12 moment.
13 Q. From the time that your mother and he
14 married, was he always living there with you and your
15 brother and sister up until the time you went to live with
16 Rudy Kos?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What did he do for a living?
19 A. I believe, at the time, he was -- he was in
20 the Air Force and he -- he flew constantly. He wasn't a
21 pilot, but I don't know what he did on an airplane, but he
22 spent his time flying. He was a navigator or something. I
23 don't know.
24 Q. All right. Did your stepfather get to know
25 Rudy Kos after you met Rudy?
3413
01 A. No, not particularly.
02 Q. Did Rudy ever come to your house in Fort
03 Worth before he was a priest, while he was still a nurse
04 back at Methodist Hospital?
05 A. I believe he did.
06 Q. Okay. What precipitated Rudy visiting your
07 family's home when he was a nurse?
08 A. Uh, I don't recall -- it would -- things
09 like he would come over for dinner. And I think it was
10 just -- it was social. He came over to visit me. And
11 so --
12 Q. Okay. Did he become friends with your
13 whole family?
14 A. Uh, not to the degree that he became friends
15 with me.
16 Q. He saw you in the hospital, too?
17 A. That's correct. And he saw my mother, also,
18 when she came to visit.
19 Q. Was there ever any kind of physical contact,
20 inappropriate physical contact by Kos when you were at
21 Methodist Hospital as a patient?
22 A. Not that I recall specifically.
23 Q. Did he treat a number of young people there
24 at Methodist Hospital?
25 A. No, he didn't. The Pulmonary/Respiratory
3414
01 Unit was mostly older terminal patients, or at least
02 chronic.
03 Q. How often were you there?
04 A. Probably about a month a year, sometimes two
05 months every year for four or five years.
06 Q. Was it all in one stay or would you be there
07 a couple of weeks and leave and later come back?
08 A. It varied. In -- the first time I went
09 there, I think I was there for six weeks, and then I think
10 it was pretty much split up spring and fall, spring and
11 fall. Just the seasons change were particularly difficult
12 for me.
13 Q. Would trigger the asthma problems.
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. How many times -- how regularly did Rudy
16 come to your family's home in Fort Worth back during that
17 time period?
18 A. In the very beginning I don't remember him
19 coming to my mother's house at all; it was just me seeing
20 him in the hospital. I think, as I got older and I
21 spent -- you know, as the years progressed, I really only
22 -- I really couldn't say specifically, but I just recall
23 him coming over -- my perception is that he came over just
24 a few times to spend time with my family, and most of the
25 time he just came and got me and we left.
3415
01 Q. And so when he got you and you left, that
02 was back when he was still a nurse at Methodist Hospital.
03 A. And even up through the -- when he became in
04 the cemetery -- seminary, not the cemetery.
05 Q. Right. I understand that. I hadn't gotten
06 that far on the time line yet.
07 A. Uh-huh.
08 Q. Back when he was a nurse at Methodist, he
09 was already, by that point, coming to your mother's house
10 in Fort Worth and picking you up.
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. All right. Did he ever get to know your
13 sister or your brother?
14 A. He got to know them.
15 Q. Did they like him, dislike him or -- they
16 would have been older than you at that time?
17 A. Yes.
18 I -- I don't think they disliked him. I
19 couldn't speak to the degree that they liked him, no.
20 Q. Did your mother grow to like Rudy Kos?
21 A. Yes, apparently she did.
22 Q. Okay. When he would come over to your
23 house were there occasions where he would come over even
24 for dinner?
25 A. That's correct.
3416
01 Q. What was your stepfather's feeling about
02 Father Kos back at that time?
03 A. My stepfather didn't express any feelings
04 and I really couldn't speak to any feelings that he had.
05 Q. Did he get to know Rudy, too?
06 A. To some degree, but I don't know to what
07 degree at all.
08 Q. You don't know too much about that.
09 A. No, I don't. I don't remember their
10 interaction.
11 Q. What about your biological father? Did he
12 know Rudy Kos back during that time?
13 A. He had met Rudy Kos.
14 Q. Where would he have met him?
15 A. At the hospital.
16 Q. At the hospital?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Did he continue to see Rudy Kos periodically
19 through the years?
20 A. No, I don't believe he did.
21 Q. What about your stepfather? Did he continue
22 to see Rudy Kos through all of these years that we're
23 talking about?
24 A. Not that I recall specifically. I just
25 don't remember them interacting to any great degree.
3417
01 Q. Okay. When you were at Methodist Hospital,
02 I take it you liked Rudy Kos, grew to like him?
03 A. Uh-huh.
04 Q. What kind of things would you do when he
05 came to pick you up in Fort Worth?
06 A. Just whatever -- I just -- we would go out
07 and do silly things like play Putt-Putt and then go to the
08 park and go, you know, run around. I would -- different
09 things.
10 Q. And that would have been when you were how
11 old?
12 A. This is later -- early -- early teens, I
13 guess.
14 Q. So you started -- you met him at the
15 hospital when you were eight or ninish?
16 A. Uh-huh, a little earlier.
17 Q. And then you were around him, up until the
18 early teens.
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. When he would come pick you up, your mother,
21 of course, would have been aware of that, I assume.
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Would your stepfather have been aware of
24 that?
25 A. I don't know if he would or not.
3418
01 Q. What about your natural father?
02 A. No, he absolutely would not have been aware
03 at all.
04 Q. Did you have much contact, back at that
05 time, with your natural father?
06 A. No. We were cordial when we saw each other
07 on holidays and that type of thing.
08 Q. But otherwise, not a close relationship.
09 A. That's correct.
10 Q. What about your stepfather? How did you get
11 along with your stepfather?
12 A. We were cordial. We were somewhat like
13 roommates. We were polite to each other. We -- we looked
14 out for each other's interests inasmuch as it was
15 convenient for us, I guess I should say.
16 Q. How did he get along with your brother and
17 sister?
18 A. Much the same way.
19 Q. So none of the three of you had a very close
20 relationship with your stepfather?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Did there come a point where you did not get
23 along with him?
24 A. No, I would not say that.
25 Q. It never came to the point where you just
3419
01 didn't want to be around him?
02 A. No, it's never come to that, even today.
03 Q. Did your brother and sister continue to live
04 with your mom and your stepfather up until they, say,
05 finished high school?
06 A. Yes.
07 Q. Where does your brother live now?
08 A. He lives in the Lake Worth area.
09 Q. And, at his age, I assume he is out of
10 school?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What does he do for a living?
13 A. He is a specialty mechanic or a specialist
14 mechanic. He works on things like Delorian's and Ferrari's
15 and cars that are difficult to find a mechanic to work on.
16 Q. What does your sister do for a living?
17 A. I don't know her exact title. She works for
18 the Federal Government. And she inspects machines that
19 create radiation, x-ray machines and high intensity lasers,
20 anything that creates an inordinate amount of radiation.
21 Q. What does your stepfather and mother do now?
22 What do they do?
23 A. My stepfather drives a truck for Sears, I
24 think. My mother isn't employed right now.
25 Q. But your brother and sister stayed there,
3420
01 living at the house, all of the way until they graduated
02 high school?
03 A. I believe so.
04 Q. (John Doe #VIII), let me ask you how -- I haven't
05 figured up all of the dates in my head exactly, but --
06 A. Neither have I.
07 Q. Yes. The -- it's not easy to keep track of.
08 How did -- did your brother and sister move
09 away when they finished high school or did they stay there
10 at home?
11 A. My brother stayed there at home; my sister
12 moved away and went to college.
13 Q. How did your -- your moving to live with
14 Rudy Kos coincide with your sister leaving the house to go
15 to college?
16 A. I don't recall exactly.
17 Q. Had your sister already moved away when you
18 went to live with Rudy?
19 A. I guess she had.
20 Q. What about your brother? Was he still
21 there --
22 A. Yes, he was.
23 Q. -- when you moved away?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. How much longer did he stay there after you
3421
01 moved away?
02 A. Years and years and years. I don't think
03 he -- he never wished to move out of that house.
04 Q. Okay. All right.
05 During the time that Rudy was a nurse at
06 Methodist Hospital did -- did your mom or your stepfather
07 ever say anything to you of a negative nature about Rudy?
08 A. Not that I recall specifically.
09 Q. Okay. It was always a good relationship
10 and they liked him?
11 A. As far as I recall.
12 Q. Okay. How would you describe Rudy back
13 then? What was he like when he was a nurse at Methodist?
14 A. My perception of him?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Understand, I was a child.
17 Q. Sure. I just mean your -- your evaluation
18 of him, your perception.
19 A. He -- he was like a big child, to me. He
20 was just like a kid, except he was, you know, much larger
21 than I was.
22 He -- you know, that -- that is just what
23 stands out in my mind, that even though was an adult, he
24 struck me as he could relate to us.
25 Q. How old was he back at that point?
3422
01 A. I assume he was in his younger thirties. And
02 I really don't know.
03 Q. Maybe even younger. Let's see, he is fifty
04 something now -- well, he is about fifty now, so he was a
05 pretty young guy back at that point.
06 A. He didn't strike me as such, but I guess
07 that is true.
08 Q. Seemed older to you.
09 All right. When -- when Rudy was in
10 seminary -- now he still had his house that he kept in Oak
11 Cliff, back at that time, right?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Was there a number of times where you went
14 to see Rudy either while he was in seminary or at the
15 seminary or his house?
16 A. There were a number of times for all of
17 this.
18 Q. Okay. Did your mother see him during that
19 period of time?
20 A. I believe she did.
21 Q. Did she ever visit him at the seminary?
22 A. Not that I recall specifically, not -- well,
23 she did in the very end. I don't know if he had already
24 graduated. Sometime -- we went there sometime before his
25 ordination.
3423
01 Q. Did she visit him at his house?
02 A. Not that I recall specifically, but I
03 believe she had knowledge of the house, so she must have.
04 Q. You know, either while he was at Methodist
05 or later, while he was in the seminary, did your mother
06 ever go see his house, you know, see where it was, what it
07 was, what it looked like, while you were going over there?
08 A. Well, I mean, she -- I believe she drove me
09 over there sometimes, and so she must have. I don't
10 remember her, you know, going in the house and walking
11 around. I don't have that specific memory. But I
12 remember being in the car with her, going to his house. And
13 so I couldn't really address that very well.
14 Q. Did you ever met any of Rudy's other friends
15 while he was at Methodist Hospital?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Were they other people that worked at
18 the hospital?
19 A. One of them was.
20 Q. Okay. What was that person's name?
21 A. Michael Kelly.
22 Q. Have you kept up with Michael Kelly?
23 A. No. I've looked for him. I believe he has
24 died of AIDS.
25 Q. Any of his other friends? Did you know any
3424
01 of the other doctors there at the hospital?
02 A. Just Dr. Miller.
03 Q. Have you kept up with him?
04 A. No. I spoke to his wife years ago. And she
05 is the one that told me about Michael Kelly.
06 Q. All right. Did I understand you yesterday
07 to say that the first time Rudy Kos gave you alcohol was
08 when you were a youngster, before he was a priest?
09 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Was that when he was in the seminary years
11 or in the Methodist Hospital years?
12 A. I believe it was in the Methodist Hospital
13 years, actually, but I'm really not certain of that. It
14 was -- I was about the sixth grade, was the first time that
15 I remember specifically. I graduated in '85, so I don't
16 know.
17 Q. Okay. And he gave you marijuana back in
18 that period, too?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 Q. Was there -- is there any history of
21 alcohol-related problems in your family?
22 A. With my father, yes.
23 Q. Could you describe it for us, what that is?
24 This is your biological father?
25 A. That's correct. He is an alcoholic.
3425
01 Q. How long has he had that difficulty?
02 A. As long as I can recall.
03 Q. The -- the first occurrence of Rudy rubbing
04 your feet, that you talked about yesterday, describe for us
05 what he did when it first began.
06 A. Describe what he --
07 Q. Yes. Did it start out with just a foot
08 massage, seemingly innocent?
09 A. I -- I guess that specific instance, I don't
10 recall exactly how it started, but I do recall foot
11 massages prior to that time.
12 Q. All right. As I understand what you told
13 me in your deposition, his rubbing your feet or using his
14 feet to rub you is -- is the activity that you recall that
15 occurred during these period of years?
16 A. "This period of years" being what?
17 Q. Up until '85 or '84, like you said.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you don't recall any other kind of
20 sexual contact between the two of you at all?
21 A. Not specifically at this time, but I'm
22 afraid it was much, much more.
23 Q. Okay. And do you remember me asking you
24 that in the deposition, and you said that was what you
25 remembered; is that right?
3426
01 A. Yes.
02 Q. Okay. And I believe you also said that
03 there was not an instance that you remember where you had
04 your clothes off when he had his clothes off.
05 A. There is not a sexual incident that I recall
06 in which he had his clothes off.
07 Q. Right. That is what I'm referring to.
08 A. Okay.
09 Q. And I think you said in your deposition that
10 there was not an incident where you had your socks off.
11 A. Not that I recall.
12 Q. Okay. At what point did you perceive what
13 Rudy was doing as sexual in nature?
14 A. Not until years and years later when I was
15 speaking to Laurel Chapet.
16 Q. What?
17 A. When I was speaking with Laurel Chapet.
18 Q. The counselor?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. What year was that?
21 A. Probably '83/'84, in that time frame.
22 Q. I think you mean '93.
23 A. Yes, I'm sorry, '93/'94.
24 Q. How old were you when you went to live at
25 All Saints Church with Rudy?
3427
01 A. Sixteen or seventeen, right in there.
02 Q. So that would have made you a sophomore in
03 high school, or junior?
04 A. I think I went there either at the end of my
05 sophomore year, the beginning of my junior year.
06 Q. Did you have a driver's license at the time
07 you moved to All Saints?
08 A. No, I didn't.
09 Q. How long was it before you got your license
10 after that?
11 A. I guess it was shortly thereafter, when I
12 turned seventeen.
13 Q. Okay. (John Doe #VIII), when you came -- what
14 precipitated your going to live at All Saints? Did -- did
15 you talk to your mom about it in advance?
16 A. I don't recall that we talked about it. I
17 mean, we must have -- obviously I didn't just pack
18 everything and say "Bye", but I don't recall it -- a number
19 of conversations or that type of thing. It's difficult for
20 me to answer that.
21 Q. You don't -- was it not discussed over a
22 period of time leading up to your actually moving?
23 A. The fact that I was unhappy at Nolan was
24 discussed. And my motivation was to go to Dallas go to
25 school.
3428
01 Q. Nolan was the school you were going to.
02 A. That's correct, Nolan High School.
03 Q. What was it that you were unhappy about at
04 Nolan?
05 A. You know, looking back, I really don't know
06 what it was that made me so unhappy there. And it might
07 have just been that I was really just much happier being at
08 the rectory and being with Rudy at the time. And so I was
09 just unhappy in the fact I was away from there.
10 Q. Had you visited Rudy over at the rectory at
11 All Saints before you actually moved over there?
12 A. That's correct. I had spent a lot of time
13 there.
14 Q. Would your mother have been aware that you
15 were there?
16 A. That's correct, she was.
17 Q. Would she have been aware because she took
18 you over there, or did Rudy come and pick you up like he
19 would have done when he was a nurse?
20 A. I believe Rudy came and picked me up. My
21 mother didn't drive that much.
22 Q. Did your mom ever come over and visit Rudy
23 before you moved in, visit Rudy at the rectory at All
24 Saints?
25 A. I imagine she did, but I don't recall a
3429
01 specific instance
02 Q. You don't recall her coming over?
03 A. Well, I imagine she did, but I don't recall
04 a specific time when she came over there.
05 Q. Is it correct to assume that she would have
06 met Monsignor Kamel and Father Kelly there at All Saints
07 before you moved over there?
08 A. Before I moved over there?
09 Q. Yes.
10 A. I don't know for certain. I don't know if
11 she did.
12 Q. Did your stepfather ever go over to the
13 rectory at All Saints --
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. -- before you moved there?
16 A. I don't believe so.
17 Q. Okay. You don't remember him going over to
18 check it out and see what he thought?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. All right. When you first moved over there
21 had -- had your mother already given Rudy the document
22 allowing him to make medical decisions, that sort of thing?
23 A. My understanding was it had been done -- it
24 had been executed a long -- sometime prior to that.
25 Q. Okay.
3430
01 A. A considerable amount of time prior to that.
02 Q. What is your understanding of how much prior
03 to that it had been executed?
04 A. A year or more. I really don't know.
05 Q. And you moved over to All Saints when?
06 A. It would have been '83 or '84. Eighty-three,
07 I guess.
08 Q. All right. (John Doe #VIII), when you moved over there,
09 was this something that you suggested? You know, did you
10 go to your mom and say, "I want to move. I want to go to a
11 different school and I want to move over with Rudy Kos"?
12 A. That's my belief.
13 Q. Was there -- other than the school, that you
14 wanted to go a different school, was there any other reason
15 that didn't want to live at home and you wanted to move
16 over with Rudy Kos?
17 A. No. There wasn't any reason I didn't want
18 to live at home, but there were a number of reasons why I
19 wanted to live with Rudy Kos. I mean, he had a nice car.
20 It's very comfort living in a rectory; you have a maid and
21 a cook and eat what you want and you drink what you want.
22 You were really treated like a king. And so --
23 Q. Well, let me ask you: Was your mom, as a
24 sixteen -- you were sixteen at the time, did you say?
25 A. Roughly.
3431
01 Q. As a sixteen year, old was your mom, you
02 know, surprised that you wanted to move out of her home and
03 wanted to move in with Rudy Kos?
04 A. Her being surprised is not what I recall
05 from the -- I recall her being hurt, but I don't recall her
06 being surprised.
07 Q. Well, did the two of you talk about it?
08 A. I imagine we did.
09 Q. Would you have talked about it in some
10 detail? I mean, this is your mother and you're wanting to
11 move out, as a sixteen year old.
12 A. I imagine we did, but it's difficult to
13 understand my relationship with my mother. She would have
14 done anything that I wanted or anything -- I got anything I
15 wanted. I was, to a great degree, a spoiled brat. And so,
16 you know, if she could do it for me, she would have. And
17 so I think she just bowed to my desires.
18 Q. Did -- when you moved -- did I understand
19 you yesterday to say that you yourself thought that you had
20 been adopted by Rudy?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Did -- did Rudy tell you that?
23 A. I don't know how that -- I believe that came
24 from Rudy. I know it was -- I know that is what everyone
25 in the rectory thought, that is what everyone in the church
3432
01 thought, that is what the Texas Catholic wrote. And that
02 all came from Rudy. And so my belief is that Rudy told
03 me, also.
04 Q. Did he talk about that with you -- I'm
05 trying to figure out how your mother fits into the picture.
06 Did you talk with your mom about whether you
07 were being adopted or whether you were just going to be
08 living with him? What was going on?
09 A. No, because it -- I believe the way it came
10 -- the way I understood it was that I thought the papers
11 that my mother had signed had given him -- because, you
12 know, I didn't read law very well at the time, obviously,
13 so I understood that the authorization was an adoption at
14 that time. And so not until, you know, we started going
15 over this stuff for court and I looked at that document did
16 I understand what it really was.
17 Q. Okay. So you thought at sixteen you were
18 adopted, and you continued to think that until a couple of
19 years ago?
20 A. That's correct. It was my representation to
21 the world, at that time. People would ask me and I would
22 say, "Yes. I was adopted by a Catholic priest."
23 Q. After you went to live at All Saints, how
24 often would you say you saw your mother or stepfather?
25 A. Really not very much at all. I very, very
3433
01 quickly became isolated there at the rectory with Rudy.
02 Q. Okay. Did your mother come over there very
03 often?
04 A. For -- I would -- it became -- I would visit
05 her like on Mother's Day and holidays and things like that.
06 I think that was really about the extent of it. I spoke
07 to her on the phone periodically, but I really didn't visit
08 her.
09 Q. All right. Now when you moved with Rudy,
10 you enrolled at the Bishop Lynch High School?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. Where is Bishop Lynch located?
13 A. In Garland.
14 Q. Okay. How would you get from north Dallas
15 at All Saints and Bishop Lynch High School in Garland?
16 A. I believe at St. Rita's -- there was a
17 school that had -- there was like a church that had a
18 school that went up to middle school. And I had a bus and
19 he would drop me off there or I would ride with some of my
20 friends or some kids that --
21 Q. That is a pretty good distance between All
22 Saints Church and Bishop Lynch High School, isn't it?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Was your attendance better at Bishop Lynch
25 than it had been back at Nolan?
3434
01 A. Relatively.
02 Q. Okay. What do you mean by relatively?
03 A. It wasn't particularly wonderful, but, I,
04 mean, it was --
05 Q. But it was better than at Nolan.
06 A. As I recall, yes.
07 Q. Had attendance and staying in school been
08 part of the problem when you were living at home and at
09 Nolan?
10 A. Yes. I -- I guess. You know --
11 Q. So on a typical -- typical school day after
12 you moved in with Rudy, he would drive you over to the --
13 to where the bus left from another school and then you
14 would take the bus over to Bishop Lynch?
15 A. Uh-huh. Well, sometimes I would ride with
16 other people.
17 Q. Or sometimes you rode with other people.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Were these other people other boys, boys
20 that had cars?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Were they boys from the All Saints Church
23 there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Did any of the other boys in the
3435
01 lawsuit here go to Bishop Lynch at the same time as you?
02 A. Not at the same time as me, I don't think.
03 Q. All right. Now when you were at Bishop
04 Lynch how did you do there? You graduated, didn't you?
05 A. Yes, I graduated.
06 Q. And you graduated from Bishop Lynch.
07 A. That's correct.
08 Q. Were there, you know, ever discipline
09 problems of any significance? Were you ever suspended or
10 anything like that?
11 A. No. I fell asleep in class, for some
12 strange reason, but that was --
13 Q. But other than that, you went through
14 school.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. How did Rudy Kos pay for your school --
17 well, let me rephrase that.
18 Did he pay for your school at Bishop Lynch?
19 A. Not so far as I know.
20 Q. Who paid for it?
21 A. I don't know for certain that anybody paid
22 for it.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I mean, I --
25 Q. You just weren't aware of it?
3436
01 A. Yes.
02 Q. Who paid for your -- like, your clothes,
03 just your living expenses as a teenager?
04 A. My mother gave some money to Rudy. I
05 worked. In fact, I wish I could do as well now as I did
06 then.
07 Q. Where did you work back then?
08 A. The Registry Hotel. I was a Bellman. In
09 the eighties it was opulent and --
10 Q. A lot of teenagers did that.
11 A. Yeah. It was great money.
12 Q. Well, now you said your mom gave Rudy some
13 money. Did your mom give Rudy your father's child support
14 money?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And that continued during the time
17 that he had custody of you; is that right?
18 A. Custody to speak of. I mean, I don't --
19 Q. I beg your pardon?
20 A. Yes. I guess when he had physical custody
21 of me.
22 Q. Okay. Now when you were at All Saints
23 Monsignor Kamel lived there with you; did he not?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. And Father Greg Kelly; is that right?
3437
01 A. Yes.
02 Q. Were there any other priests that lived
03 there in residence while you were there?
04 A. I remember Father Peebles being there when I
05 visited, but not when I lived there.
06 Q. Not when you lived there. All right.
07 Now did you get to know Monsignor Kamel
08 during the years that you were there?
09 A. To some degree, but he was a very quiet man
10 and he -- we didn't really talk very much at all.
11 Q. How old was he at the time?
12 A. He was quite an elderly gentleman, as I
13 recall.
14 Q. He was what?
15 A. He was quite an elderly gentleman, as I
16 recall.
17 Q. From your perspective?
18 A. Yes, as a teenager.
19 Q. He wasn't as old as you think?
20 A. Yeah. I mean no disrespect.
21 Q. And Father Kelly, he was another young guy,
22 similar in age to Rudy?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Okay. Were those two other priests there
25 the whole time that were you there?
3438
01 A. Yes.
02 Q. Okay. Where was your room there at the
03 church?
04 A. It was between Father Kos' room and Father
05 Kelly's room.
06 Q. All right. And where was Monsignor Kamel's
07 room in relationship to that?