0001
01 NO. 93-05258-G
01
02 JOHN DOE I, et al. ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT
02 )
03 )
03 VERSUS ) OF DALLAS COUNTY
04 )
04 REVEREND RUDOLPH KOS, et al. ) 134TH JUDICIAL DISTRICT
05
05 REPORTER'S RECORD
06 VOLUME____OF _____
06 APPEARANCES:
07
07
08 MR. WINDLE TURLEY
08 Attorney at Law
09 1000 University Tower
09 6440 N. Central Expressway
10 Dallas, Texas 75205
10
11 MS. SYLVIA M. DEMAREST
11 Attorney at Law
12 DEMAREST, SMITH, PRESLAR, JONES & GIUNTA
12 Cedar Maple Plaza
13 2305 Cedar Springs Road, Suite 350
13 Dallas, Texas 75201
14
14 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS
15
15 MR. RANDAL MATHIS
16 MR. DENNIS ROOSSIEN
16 Attorneys at Law
17 MUNSCH, HARDT, KOPF, HARR & DINAN, P. C.
17 4000 Fountain Place
18 1455 Ross Avenue
18 Dallas, Texas 75202-2711
19 FOR THE DIOCESE OF
19 DALLAS
20
20
21 On the 18th day of June, 1997, the
22 above-entitled and numbered cause came on for a hearing
23 before the Honorable Anne Ashby, Judge presiding of the
24 134th Judicial District Court of Dallas County, Texas, and
25 a jury, at which time the following proceedings were had:
0002
01
01 W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S:
02
02 PAGE
03
03 (John Doe #6)
04
04 Direct Examination (resumed)
05 By Mr. Turley..........5672
05 Cross Examination
06 By Mr. Mathis..........5764
06 Recross Examination
07 By Mr. Turley..........5804
07 Recross Examination
08 By Mr. Mathis..........5806
08 Redirect Examination
09 By Mr. Turley..........5814
09 Recross Examination
10 By Mr. Mathis..........5814
10 Redirect Examination
11 By Mr. Turley..........5815
11
12 (Mother of John Doe #10)
12
13 Direct Examination
13 By Mr. Turley..........5816
14 Cross Examination
14 By Mr. Mathis..........5870
15 Redirect Examination
15 By Mr. Turley..........5875
16 Recross Examination
16 By Mr. Mathis..........5877
17 Redirect Examination
17 By Mr. Turley..........5878
18
18 (John Doe #7)
19
19 Direcct Examination
20 By Ms. Demarset........5879
20
21
21
22
22
23
23
24
24
25
25
5669
01
02
03 (Out of the presence and
04 hearing of the jury).
05 MR. TURLEY: I just wanted the commentary
06 removed from the continuous sight of the jury, since it has
07 not been admitted into evidence, for a lot of different
08 reasons that I think are good, and I don't need to -- I
09 won't go into it, unless the Court wants me to, but it's
10 just not in evidence, and it keeps sitting out there.
11 MR. MATHIS: Exhibit A is the Code of Canon
12 Law, the red book there. There are several other books in
13 there, the Bible and another copy -- well, not another copy
14 -- a two-volume set of the old code that preceded this
15 Exhibit A, that the court reporter has not brought in.
16 Parts of that are in evidence, there are
17 going to be more of it in evidence, and then we have all
18 agreed later on we'll copy those parts that are, so they
19 can be attached to the record.
20 The fact that it is sitting on the table
21 with all of the other things that have been introduced into
22 evidence, hundreds of pages, to me, is not inappropriate,
23 and why in the world the Plaintiffs think that it can't sit
24 there is a mystery to me. It's kind of like why they
25 objected to the Bible being admitted. But nevertheless --
5670
01 MR. TURLEY: Well, I did, and I was right,
02 and it was rejected. This has also been rejected. The
03 Court has permitted Mr. Mathis to put in some excerpts.
04 That's that we ought to do. I don't want him to leave this
05 sitting up there speaking to the jury about this big volume
06 of Canon Law that is so big that nobody can know what all
07 is in it.
08 THE COURT: Let me make a --
09 MR. TURLEY: That's making a statement,
10 every day, every hour of this case, and I'd like to have it
11 removed.
12 THE COURT: -- a suggestion. Can we let the
13 Canon Law book live in in Marsha's until we make copies,
14 and that way --
15 MR. TURLEY: I don't even mind Mr. Mathis
16 keeping it, Your Honor, I just want it out of the sight of
17 the jury --
18 THE COURT: Well, it's not in evidence --
19 MR. MATHIS: Well, good. I'll put it on my
20 table --
21 THE COURT: If you want to put it on your
22 table --
23 MR. MATHIS: We'll just --
24 MR. TURLEY: No. I object to that too. It's
25 the same thing. It's the same thing. He wants to
5671
01 communicate to the jury -- that's what he -- why don't you
02 want to put it away, Mr. Mathis?
03 MR. MATHIS: Because a lot of it is in
04 evidence, and it is going to come in evidence with
05 different witnesses --
06 MR. TURLEY: For those parts, that's fine,
07 but Mr. Mathis wants to leave this out here so that it will
08 continue to speak to the jury, that this is a big fat book,
09 that nobody -- no priest could know what all is in it, or
10 what they are required to do --
11 THE COURT: Is it your book?
12 MR. MATHIS: Sure.
13 THE COURT: Then why don't you hang on to
14 it?
15 MR. TURLEY: Out of the sight of the jury.
16 THE COURT: Let me go get my robe. We've
17 got a jury. Thank you.
18 MR. MATHIS: Note our exception.
19 THE COURT: So noted.
20 MR. MATHIS: Are we going to schedule a time
21 to take up that court reporter business that Mr. Turley
22 raised yesterday?
23 THE COURT: Yeah. My suggestion is let's do
24 it at the end of the day, instead of starting it now.
25 MR. MATHIS: That would be fine.
01 THE COURT: Okay? Like 15 minutes, or
02 something like that. I would like to take a look at the
03 motions, because I'd like to do some research on it too.
04 MR. MATHIS: We've got the research. We've
05 got the --
06 THE COURT: Well, I am going to be having my
07 own independent research.
08 (Whereupon the jury was brought
09 into the courtroom, after which
10 the proceedings resumed as
11 follows:)
12 THE COURT: Good morning.
13 THE JURORS: Good morning.
14 THE COURT: How are y'all holding up?
15 A JUROR: Fine, thank you.
16 THE COURT: Are you doing okay? Okay. It's
17 important to know. Thanks. Y'all be seated. You may
18 proceed, Counsel.
19 (John Doe #6)
20 having been duly cautioned and sworn to tell the truth, the
21 whole truth and nothing but the truth was examined and
22 testified as follows:
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION - RESUMED
24 BY MR. TURLEY:
25 Q. Good morning, (John Doe #6).
5673
01 A. Good morning. How are you?
02 Q. Fine. (John Doe #6), yesterday we had just spent a
03 little bit of time getting to know you -- the young (John Doe #1)
04 touched a little bit on your family, and some of
05 the things that you did, the interests you had in your
06 church, and your scouting, and Indian Guides, and things
07 when you were young.
08 About the time we quit I wanted to ask you
09 to try to describe, if you can, the relationship as you
10 recall it, that existed between you and your father,
11 (Father of John Doe #1 and #6 and #20), about the time you were in
junior high,
12 before Rudy Kos really came into your family's life. Can
13 you tell the jury about that?
14 A. Well, I think -- oh, he was very active in a
15 lot of the activities, like in the -- in the scouting, and
16 we seemed to have a pretty good relationship. I know there
17 was a -- over the years there was a little bit of tension
18 between us, but I think for the most part, we had a good
19 relationship.
20 Q. Would it be fair and accurate to say that
21 maybe some of that tension even went beyond what one might
22 ordinarily expect to see in a junior high boy and his
23 father?
24 A. Looking back on it, maybe. At -- I think at
25 that time it was normal, you know, for -- I mean, I
5674
01 couldn't -- I didn't have anything to compare it to. But I
02 think there was some frustrations. You know, he wanted me
03 to make better grades, and I think he was kind of stressed
04 too from -- from his travelling.
05 Q. He traveled a lot, and wanted you to perform
06 better in school, and do other things that you were kind of
07 rebelling about?
08 A. Yes.
09 Q. And, certainly, there was some tension and
10 some problems between you and your father when you were
11 just entering high school?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. About the time Father Rudy Kos came along?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But your dad had worked with you in Indian
16 Guides, and you had a lot of other activities together, and
17 did you love him?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You trusted him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In a moment I want to ask you for some more
22 -- a more expanded view of the relationship between you and
23 your father at the present time, but can you just tell the
24 jury right now, in a nutshell about --
25 A. About -- about my father and I right now?
5675
01 Q. Yes.
02 A. No, we don't have a good relationship. I --
03 I haven't seen him -- I really haven't seen him in years.
04 Q. Okay. Except to pass him, such as when he
05 has visited here in the courtroom?
06 A. Yes.
07 Q. All right. Now let's go back to -- you are
08 just entering high school, you haven't yet met Rudy Kos --
09 tell the jury, please, about what -- what were your
10 religious convictions at the present time, if you can
11 recall, or around that time?
12 A. You mean --
13 Q. What did you believe?
14 A. In the Church?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. Well, I believed that -- I believed in what
17 the Church taught. I believed the -- the Church was so
18 important in our family. I always wanted to be there on
19 our time off. Out of school, we were always around the
20 church.
21 Q. Was the church in -- what kind of role did
22 the church play in your family's life?
23 A. Oh, it played a very important role. My
24 mother was very involved in church. She was always down
25 there. You know, we went to the Sunday School classes, and
5676
01 we were alter boys. It seemed like most of our free time,
02 other than when we were in scouting, was spent dealing with
03 the church. We -- we prayed at home, and we always -- when
04 -- before we'd go to bed, we prayed. Before dinner or
05 before we ate we always gave thanks to God.
06 Q. Now, let's talk about your particular -- and
07 your father went to church with you also, didn't he?
08 A. Yes, he did.
09 Q. And this was family --
10 A. Oh, yeah, this was a family.
11 Q. -- religious conviction?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you said yesterday that your mother and
14 father were there at the -- kind of at the start of All
15 Saints Church founding -- were they founding members?
16 A. I believe they were founding members. My --
17 you know, my father traveled a lot, so he wasn't -- he
18 wasn't -- my mother was more involved, because during the
19 week she was down there, I guess.
20 Q. (John Doe #6), tell the jury about why you wanted to
21 be an alter boy. You have heard the other young men make
22 those expressions, are your -- were your motives any
23 different?
24 A. No, they weren't any different. The church
25 was such an important part of our life, we wanted to --
5677
01 that was the way to become closer to the priests, to the
02 church, be more involved in our religion.
03 Q. And you were active in the youth
04 organizations at church?
05 A. Yes.
06 Q. What -- what, as you understand now, was
07 your mother doing at the church at that time? What were
08 her activities there, if you know?
09 A. Well, she was -- I know she was a
10 Eucharistic Minister which is --
11 Q. What does that mean?
12 A. That is giving -- she gave communion to the
13 parishioners during the mass. And she was on the -- I know
14 she was on the -- helped on the design of the building of
15 the church. She was the -- one of the interior decorators.
16 She was always working on odd projects up there for them
17 with the priests.
18 Q. She spent a lot of time at the church?
19 A. Yes, she did.
20 Q. And your -- your brothers? We saw the
21 picture yesterday of (John Doe #20), and you said he was also an
22 alter server, and I think you said that brother (John Doe #1)went on to
23 become an alter server.
24 A. Yes. They were both --
25 Q. All of you boys -- the only three boys in
5678
01 the (John Doe #1 and #6) were alter servers?
02 A. Yes, we were all alter servers.
03 Q. At All Saints Church.
04 A. Yes.
05 Q. Back in those days when you were a freshman
06 in high school, you would get -- say in that summertime of
07 1981, when you got out of school, what would you do?
08 A. We -- when we got out of school, usually we
09 went down to the church. I was down there so much, I even
10 helped the janitor clean down there, because I didn't have
11 anything to do down there. I would just go down there.
12 Q. I believe sometimes when the janitor was
13 away Father Kamel gave you the job?
14 A. Yeah. He'd let me be the janitor of the
15 church for a week or two while the janitor was on vacation
16 Q. And how would you get to church?
17 A. I'd usually walk.
18 Q. You all lived that close?
19 A. Within a mile.
20 Q. Do you remember when you went to your first
21 confession, (John Doe #6)?
22 A. Well, I believe I remember my first
23 confession. I think it was with Father Duca.
24 Q. About how old were you?
25 A. Somewhere maybe around thirteen.
5679
01 Q. And at that age, did you -- you told me when
02 we were talking about your testimony the other day, that
03 you remembered when you went to your early confessions, you
04 -- had to kind of try to think up things to confess?
05 A. Yeah.
06 (Laughter in the courtroom)
07 Q. You wanted it to be successful --
08 A. I guess our crimes weren't all that serious.
09 It was basically, I called my brother a name, or didn't
10 make my bed in the morning, and those were the serious
11 sins I had to confess.
12 Q. This -- you also mentioned that sometimes
13 when you were in school, after you would get out of school,
14 instead of going home, you'd go to church --
15 A. To the church, yes.
16 Q. So this pattern of you being at the church,
17 and involved in church was somewhat ongoing before Rudy Kos
18 ever came to All Saints?
19 A. Oh, yeah.
20 Q. Did you have a strong conviction at that
21 time -- had you had a personal belief about God, and heaven
22 and hell, and the Catholic Church?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Tell the jury what you -- how you viewed
25 priests. In 1981, about the time Rudy Kos is starting to
5680
01 -- is going to arrive at All Saints Church and you are
02 hanging out at the church a lot, and a substitute janitor,
03 what was your view of priests?
04 A. Well, maybe the easiest way for me to do
05 that is -- can I use like an analogy to --
06 Q. Okay.
07 A. Probably, if a child was, say on a football
08 team, a quarterback, and his dreams and hopes were to be a
09 professional quarterback, be the best quarterback there
10 ever was, and he lived and studied football, that was his
11 -- his dreams. You know, he had all of the relics on the
12 -- you know, the little pennants, or the flags hanging on
13 his wall, the -- you know, maybe the -- or foot -- you
14 know, the autographed football on his dresser, and pictures
15 of famous players on there, and, you know, one day he gets
16 the opportunity to go out to Valley Ranch and meet Troy
17 Aikman. You know, I think that would be the biggest thing
18 that could -- that would happen to him. I think Troy
19 Aikman to that boy would be equivalent to, say, a priest,
20 to a a young devoted Catholic boy. You know.
21 And if Troy Aikman acknowledged him, I think
22 that would mean the world. You know, if he gave him some
23 advice. If he had to run 25 miles a day to be the best,
24 you know, that boy would be running 30 miles a day. If he
25 asked him to hang out with them, I think it would even go
5681
01 to the point if they went out fishing together, you know,
02 if he -- I think if he gave him a beer, Troy Aikman gave
03 that boy a beer, I think he'd drink the beer.
04 If he told him you are going to be stronger,
05 you know, or better, you need to -- you need to take
06 steroids or something, he'd do it. I think that -- I think
07 that was probably one of the best ways to view how
08 important, or how -- how -- an idol -- much of an idol a
09 priest could be.
10 Q. And does that pretty well describe, at least
11 on a secular level, how -- how you would start to think
12 about priests before Rudy Kos came along?
13 A. That would be a priest; I wouldn't say that
14 would be Rudy Kos. That would be -- be a typical priest.
15 Q. What did you -- what did you think about
16 that? How did you see a priest?
17 A. I think that was a pretty -- pretty good --
18 I don't know what else to -- you know, the priests, they --
19 they were almost -- I'd say they were almost like
20 super-heroes. They had powers. They could do -- they
21 could, you know, perform baptism, they could administer
22 somebody their last rights, they could even forgive your
23 sins.
24 Q. Did you believe they were your way to
25 heaven?
5682
01 A. Oh, yes.
02 Q. To be trusted?
03 A. Absolutely.
04 Q. Holy, reverent?
05 A. Yes.
06 Q. You were supposed to believe them and follow
07 them?
08 A. Yes.
09 Q. When you -- when you would go to confession,
10 I remember you told me sometimes you were somewhat hesitant
11 when you did have something to tell a priest, to do so.
12 Do you remember why you told me you had that hesitancy?
13 A. Well --
14 Q. I think you told me -- you may have
15 forgotten, but didn't you tell me that it was because
16 whatever they told you, you had to do?
17 A. Yeah. Yeah. If I had, say, taken five
18 dollars from my brother, if they told me to go back and
19 give him the five dollars back and tell him I took it, then
20 I'd have to do that. And so it was -- you know --
21 Q. It was part of the --
22 A. It was scary.
23 Q. It was part of the spiritual power that they
24 held over you?
25 A. Yes.
5683
01 Q. It was very -- it was very real. Very, very
02 real? Very much a part of your life?
03 A. Yeah. Yes. If they told you -- what they
04 said was as good as gold.
05 Q. And even if a -- if a priest -- if you were
06 around a priest that didn't have his collar on, wasn't
07 dressed in black, did this aura, this power, this respect,
08 this trust go away?
09 A. No, I think it just -- as, if the boy went
10 fishing with Troy Aikman, he's still Troy Aikman.
11 Q. Even if he didn't have a helmet on?
12 A. Yes. Even if he didn't have the helmet on.
13 Q. And what if -- what if this boy, (John Doe #6)
14 , was taken in by Troy Aikman, if he wanted to be a
15 football player, and Troy said, "I will be your mentor, and
16 I will teach you, and I will give you guidance in whatever
17 you need to do," then how would this little boy think about
18 Troy Aikman, the quarterback?
19 A. Oh, I don't know what else -- I don't know
20 what else you'd want. I think that would be the highest
21 honor that boy could have ever had.
22 Q. Is there anything that that little boy
23 wouldn't do for him?
24 A. No, I don't think so.
25 Q. You told me about an incident with Rudy Kos
5684
01 when you all had gone to a drive-in to buy -- to get
02 something to eat, and he got an extra Coke or something, in
03 the process?
04 A. Hmm --
05 Q. Tell jury about that. And then I want to
06 ask you something else.
07 A. Well, it was -- it was I guess an example
08 that Rudy had set for me by his own actions. We had gone
09 to Wendy's one day, and he had bought a -- he got us some
10 food, and they had accidentally given us an extra shake.
11 And while we were pulling off, he noticed that they had
12 given him the shake, and drove back around and went back
13 into the drive-through, and gave them the shake back, and
14 then explained to me that that was wrong, that he didn't --
15 he didn't pay for it. That's not right. That was all.
16 A couple of years later I was up in
17 Oklahoma, I was at school, and we were out of money, me and
18 my girlfriend. We didn't have any -- anything to eat --
19 Q. You were really out of money?
20 A. Yeah. I -- I think this was like the second
21 day we hadn't had anything to eat, and we had scrounged up
22 some money, and I think they had a special going on, you
23 know, 25 cent cheeseburgers, so we scrounged up some fifty
24 cents and a little bit for tax, and went up there, and they
25 gave us three. And so --
5685
01 Q. Three instead of two?
02 A. Instead of two. So I went back and gave
03 them back that one hamburger. I got in so much trouble,
04 but that was one of the examples that Rudy had taught me.
05 Q. And is that or not, (John Doe #6), an example of the
06 tremendous impression that Rudy Kos made on you?
07 A. Yes, it is.
08 Q. How he -- you know, even at times when -- of
09 great personal stress in your life, years later, you felt
10 that that was the kind of thing that you had been taught
11 and you needed -- example you needed to follow?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Even before you ever met Rudy Kos, if a
14 priest had asked you to do something, would you have done
15 it?
16 A. Oh, absolutely.
17 Q. Did you look at Rudy Kos the same way after
18 you -- and I want to come in a minute to when you first got
19 to know him, but let me skip ahead just a little bit.
20 Talking about your relationship and your view of priests,
21 how did you look at Rudy Kos, compared to other priests?
22 A. Well, I think at first it was that -- when I
23 -- he was a lot -- he was a lot different. You know, when
24 I first --
25 Q. How was he different?
5686
01 A. It was like Troy Aikman acknowledging the
02 boy. You know, he acknowledged us. He made us feel good
03 when we were around him. And -- but later, on we found
04 that Rudy not only had the powers of -- to -- that the
05 normal priests have, to, I mean, for -- forgive somebody
06 for, you know, forgive their sins, or the different
07 sacraments that they could administer, but he had -- he had
08 even greater powers than that.
09 Q. At least, you came to -- you came to believe
10 that he did.
11 A. Oh, I believe he did, yes. He --
12 Q. You still believe that today?
13 A. Yes. Uh -- I kind of toss that around. I
14 -- I'm confused now.
15 Q. Tell us about these powers that you still to
16 a certain extent believe today that Rudy Kos had over and
17 above those that ordinary priests had.
18 A. Rudy had the power to heal people. If you
19 came to him with cancer, he could pray over you, and -- and
20 there were stories that he had healed people in that way.
21 He seemed to have a gift that other priests did not have.
22 Q. In fact, did he conduct some mass -- healing
23 Masses --
24 A. He did.
25 Q. -- at All Saints, and some of the other
5687
01 churches?
02 A. At all of the parishes. I --
03 Q. Did you participate --
04 A. Yeah. Oh, I went to some of them. The
05 first one I went to was at All Saints. People would come
06 up there, he would pray over them, and they would just fall
07 right over on the floor. It would get to the point that
08 he'd have to stop the Mass and wait for people to wake up
09 and move, because nobody could get up to the alter.
10 Q. In other words, Rudy Kos represented
11 himself, at least, to have these healing powers at that
12 time?
13 A. Yeah, he -- he was able to heal people.
14 Q. Did you see him take money from people for
15 executing these healing powers over them?
16 A. No, I'm not --
17 Q. Or checks?
18 A. I remember he had received quite a few
19 checks.
20 Q. That must have impressed you a lot, (John Doe #6),
21 as a young man, to see a priest in whom you already had the
22 highest possible respect, to be able to heal people,
23 apparently, of their illnesses.
24 A. Oh yeah. And I remember an incident later
25 on that -- I had hurt my back. And I went to him, and he
5688
01 prayed over me, and I felt better after that.
02 Q. Did you also get some pills?
03 A. Yes. He had given me some -- I don't know
04 what they were.
05 Q. Did Father Kamel know that Rudy Kos was
06 holding these -- was holding himself out as a faith-healer?
07 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?
08 Q. Did Father Kamel know that Rudy Kos was
09 holding himself out as a faith-healer?
10 A. Was that my understanding that --
11 Q. Yes. Did Father Kamel know that?
12 A. Its happened in his church. People -- I
13 know my mother I believe had gone and talked to him about
14 it, so he knew that -- what was going on.
15 Q. (John Doe #6), let's talk about your first -- first
16 time you met Rudy Kos. How old were you then?
17 A. I believe I was 15.
18 Q. And you would have been in -- a freshman in
19 highly school, 9th grade?
20 A. I think that's right.
21 Q. And do you remember when you first saw him?
22 A. Yes, I do. The first time that I had seen
23 Father Kos was -- I was hanging out with Father Peebles.
24 And me and Father Peebles were -- we were coming back from
25 running some errands, and we pulled up to the church, and
5689
01 we saw the new priest there.
02 And it was with -- and he told me that that
03 was the new priest, that was Father Kos. And Father Kos
04 was with ("adopted" Jon Doe #8). And what they were doing was
05 unloading a lot of beer from his trunk.
06 Q. How much beer?
07 A. I would say it was about five cases of beer.
08 Q. What did you think about that?
09 A. I thought Rudy was pretty cool. I looked
10 more -- I looked at him more on I guess a human level,
11 somebody -- more than a priestly level.
12 Q. Let's see. He didn't have a black suit and
13 white collar on?
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. How was he dressed that day?
16 A. He was just dressed like a normal -- a
17 normal person, I guess.
18 Q. How quickly after that, when you had your
19 first meeting in 1981 with Rudy Kos, did the sexual contact
20 commence? I know you said in your deposition -- I think
21 you said in your deposition it was about six months.
22 A. Six months --
23 Q. In thinking about it over the last few years
24 since you gave your deposition, do you still think that's
25 accurate?
5690
01 A. It began shortly after I started hanging out
02 with him. I think really it was maybe three or four
03 months.
04 Q. After Kos came in?
05 A. Yes.
06 Q. We'll come and talk about that here in just
07 a second -- in just a little bit.
08 And from that point in 1981, until what year
09 did the sexual contact continue?
10 A. 1992.
11 Q. Eleven years?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How often would you see Rudy Kos there at
14 All Saints Church?
15 A. At least three or four times a week.
16 Q. What were the circumstances under which you
17 would be in contact with him?
18 A. Well, I was in the -- I was in the alter
19 boys, so I'd see him at least one day a week there. We had
20 a Karate class that we had gotten started up there. That
21 was -- at one point it was two days a week.
22 And he also helped us with our homework. We
23 had projects -- reports to do. Go there and use the
24 computer for that, in addition to just being up there at
25 the church.
5691
01 Q. And after mass sometimes would you go to the
02 rectory?
03 A. Oh, yes.
04 Q. See him there at that time? Finally, once
05 this process of you being in contact with Rudy Kos, or him
06 in contact with you got started, how many days a week
07 during the day or in the evenings -- on the average, how
08 many days a week would you see Rudy Kos?
09 A. I'd say while I was in school, maybe three
10 or -- three days, four days a week. And, like in the
11 summertime, I'd see him almost every day. I'd see him a
12 lot.
13 Q. And this went on in late '81. Did it go on
14 all of the time he was at All Saints?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Late '81, '82, 83, '84 and part of '85?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In addition to that did, did Rudy Kos
19 develop a habit of coming to your home?
20 A. He came by --
21 Q. Or did he come by sometimes to your home?
22 A. He came by occasionally.
23 Q. And you would see him -- he would see you
24 and the boys there?
25 A. Yes.
5692
01 Q. brothers (John Doe #1 and John Doe #20)?
02 A. Yes.
03 Q. Okay. You have heard the other young men
04 tell the jury about the things that Kos had, that kind of
05 attracted him -- them there to the rectory. Do you have
06 anything to add to that, or is it pretty much the same,
07 (John Doe #6)? Run through the list right quick with us, the
08 things that you recall independently, not from what the
09 other boys have said.
10 A. The video games, the movies -- actually --
11 well, actually, he had a -- a account across the street
12 where we could just go over and get our own movies, put
13 them on his account, and we could come back and watch them.
14 So -- and I remember the movies were very popular. He had
15 the computers --
16 Q. Snacks and drinks?
17 A. Snacks, the drinks, he had the candy, the --
18 it was typically what everybody else has said.
19 Q. What we have heard. Now, (John Doe #6), in addition
20 to you working with Rudy Kos in your role as alter server
21 and your activities around the church, did he also assume
22 the role as your confessor and counselor?
23 A. Yes, he did.
24 Q. And you would actually go to him for
25 co